In this episode, Dawn and Chris discuss the call to advocate, the social work code of ethics, professional obligation, and how to speak the language of equity and social justice.
Dawn Brown, MSW is the current executive director of NASW Florida and the Virgin Islands and a member of the Association of Black Social Workers - Jacksonville Chapter. Dubbed the “Macro Maniac” by her MSW cohort at USF, Dawn has paved an impactful and inspirational career path in macro social work while simultaneously centering micro and mezzo in everything that she does, as she argues one cannot exist without the other.
In the episode, Dawn offers advice for future advocates and how to have healthy debates and conversations with those who may not agree.
Learn more about the USF School of Social Work here.
Chris Groeber: Hi my name is Chris Groeber and I'm an associate in research in the University of South Florida's College of Behavioral and Community Sciences School of Social Work. Welcome to the Remark-A-Bull podcast.
[Instrumental music]
Chris: Well welcome back listeners! We're so happy that you've returned to spend a little time with us. I'm really excited today to introduce you to my friend and colleague, and let me fully disclose, we've been friends for quite a while, but I'm actually excited because I get to spend a little time asking our guest, Dawn Brown, about things that I don't even know about. So, I’m really excited about it. Dawn Brown is the current executive director of the NASW Florida and the Virgin Islands and she is just coming off her first legislative session, so we're very fortunate to have her. She's just out now resting up from running at all of these bills that have been in in Tallahassee, so it's been an interesting time, Dawn. So, I just like to welcome you to the Remark-A-Bull Podcast because I know, personally, how remarkable you actually are.
Dawn: Thank you so much, so much, Chris for having me here. I appreciate that you're giving me this time to share space with you. As you mentioned , it's been wonderful knowing you for quite a few years now and I'm grateful to be back and the USF Bulls area in this role and sharing space with all your listeners.
Chris: Well, thanks. So, Dawn, let’s just start. You are in this kind of really cool social work position that I think a lot of people would aspire to. You and I were talking earlier about people’s macro interests. Tell us a little about your journey and how you’ve kind of evolved to, actually, where you are today.
Dawn: Yes, I'm so excited to be here. It is a privilege that I get to serve as the executive director for NASW of Florida and Virgin Islands chapters. I have to tell you, as I'm coming up almost on my one-year anniversary in this role, I'm learning quite a lot, but of course my role and time did not start here. For me, my passion for social work started a long time ago. I always say that I'm glad I answered the call to be part of the social work profession. I, of course, a little biased here, I’d say it’s an amazing, maybe the best, profession out there and so glad to be there.
Chris: Absolutely.
Dawn: But my, my start was a little different, you know. I was an undergrad. I was– I didn't get a Bachelors in Social Work although I have lots of respect for our folks who do and I've taught in those classes. But I did get a bachelor’s in education and took that and wanted to start, at that time, into my graduate world, but I was as I say, “life was life-ing, right?, because that happens to some of us, and then I had to take some time and worked and worked in various settings and then I worked in student affairs on a college campus and during that time I had the ability to really work with students in a very different way but, arguably, using what we use now is social work skills. I had the privilege to then go on to, go Bulls, to graduate from the MSW program at USF and very, very passionately during that time had the opportunity to serve in various capacities. One was with our kinship families. One of those things in my social work journey was being able to share space with the grandparents, grandmothers, and the aunts and uncles who are raising children. Being able to serve in that space was to be able to facilitate support groups and have that opportunity to listen and learn. I am always reminded and, folks, can be like a recording, I always say the importance of all levels of practice in our field (the micro, the mezzo, and the macro), we can't do one without the other, and I also agree that we can't separate them from each other and so that was the beauty of the work I did with kinship, was that, although we sat there and listened to some of folks at the most vulnerable hour, then my goal was to take some of those stories, empower that and use that when advocating for legislation that can best support them. And so, that's where that micro and that macro piece is so much connected. So, that was a wonderful journey for me that I appreciate having that experience. The other thing I will always say is this: as a social worker, for me, and I had to learn this, but I thank professors who taught me this and I thank field instructors who taught me this, is that while I can read lots of things in a book, I can read a lot of different articles, there's nothing about the learning that happens when I share space with a client and to be able to learn from their lived experience, and so I need to walk into that space with humility and walk into that space knowing that they know their lived experience and also walk into that space knowing that I have to be mindful of my own history and how that interacts. And so that was very important to me. But I'll say this, throughout this time as a student, and even as a professional, I've always been a proud member of NASW Florida. I'm also a member of the National Association of Black Social Workers. I think they're all important to be part of professional memberships. I also had the opportunity, after child welfare, to go into oncology social work. Now let me say this, for folks who sometimes think that if we are only doing listening to our patients and their families, maybe that's only clinical work, I would argue that advocacy happens in those spaces, too. I say this all the time … I learned more about insurance during my time as an oncology social worker than anything else and so it's so imperative, in my journey, and hopefully in other people's journey, that we continue to grow and listen through all three levels of practice. Now how did I get here?
Chris: Well [laughter]. Yeah, so, so how, what was the journey? It was circuitous right? I mean, to get to that point, where you're at right now.
Dawn: Absolutely, you know there's no secret to– I was a very strong volunteer with NASW Florida. I served as a student, and I worked my way through. I believe that, in many ways for myself, I have worked my way through, first starting as a student rep, then as a state student rep, and then as a legislative committee chair. But I can tell you one thing that helped me, probably more than most things, not just the volunteering, but the role that I had at USF as the chair of the online MSW program. Getting that opportunity was so important because it wasn't just that we're promoting social work, right? Because we are we're recruiting, we're enrolling, we're retaining, and we’re graduating students, so our future colleagues, but you get to learn with your other colleagues and you also get to have this opportunity to manage and supervise, which is really a lot of what I do now as the executive director. One of the things I’d like to say is this: NASW Florida is located in Tallahassee, Florida. Folks, you are more than welcome to visit us, but for me and my role, NASW Florida starts over in the Pensacola area and ends in Key West. So, we need to, like our social workers, we need to be out there in the community. So, whether it's at the schools of social work, at agencies, we need to have a presence and understand that folks locally understand their stories and that's where our job is to learn and best support folks out there and so bringing that back, I have this opportunity, I'm happy I applied for this position and I can tell you that I've been able to learn from our board, who are all volunteers, the importance of volunteerism. I cannot underestimate that we could not do this work without them. We have a chapter staff here and I also have a national staff up in DC that are all supportive in this process.
Chris: Well, you know, one of the things that I think is really important for me as I kind of journey through all of this is the parallel process, which you just kind of articulated. Yeah, you just talked about the various personalities across Florida, right? I mean Miami's fundamentally different than Tallahassee and so, listening to the chapter members in each of those areas really tells a different story that kind of aggregates, then, at a policy level in Tallahassee and so it really is a parallel process to working with families, right? I mean ...
Dawn: That's right, that’s right. I think you spoke so well to that in the sense of you're right, one I did home visits in child welfare right so you never know what you're walking into, you know? You know, this person and environment looks different when it comes from an office versus when you're going into people's homes and they were each different, but yet you have to show up, be present, be respectful in those spaces in the same way that I have to honor the story of a social worker in southwest Florida, particularly when I think about hurricane Ian just coming through, is very different than the story of someone maybe in northeast Florida and so, while there's connections and similarities, there's those differences that make us have to even program differently in those units, right?
Chris: Well, and resource differences.
Dawn: Yes!
Chris: And I think about resources for homelessness here in Clearwater seem to be much more abundant say than they are in Starke, right?
Dawn: Yes.
Chris: I mean, so that means how homelessness gets dealt with is fundamentally different. There's a different process in in the same state.
Dawn: Absolutely. And to think, I think some folks forget, Florida is a very big state, right? So, there's a lot of those differences, unfortunately, between the resource allocation and those needs. And I think that's also from a chapter standpoint and association standpoint, it's imperative that we are able to assess those needs and respond accordingly and that response is going to look different and that's okay.
Chris: All right, so then we got the values that align us all, supposedly. Talk a little bit about, because one of the things that I'm really been thinking a lot about is the dissonance between what we say we value and how we practice, and so talk a little bit about your endeavors to shrink the dissonance gap and practice and values. So, talk a little bit about how the NASW can help support reduction of dissonance so that the values look very much like the practice. Does that make sense?
Dawn: Absolutely makes sense and, first and foremost, we have to do more than talk the talk, we have to walk the walk, let me just say that.
Chris: Right, right.
Dawn: It's imperative that in NASW Florida we're looking at our Code of Ethics and those values that we are expounding those and all interactions and also in how we program. It's imperative that, when I talk about, you know in classes, we just talk about you have these mirror moments when you're interact with clients, as an association we have to have a mirror moment. If we are advocating for something yet that's not represented with the core of what we are, we need to fix that and I will tell you this, I'm very much about accountability. Things that work well, we’ll continue to elevate and things that don't, we have to say and make light of this is what we need to work on.
Chris: Right, right.
Dawn: Part of those values is this too, right, so example would be this: I can't ask people to call out and speak up and advocate if we don't do the same thing. Right?
Chris: Absolutely.
Dawn: That means with us as staff in this office, you know, finding different ways. So, some of the ways it might be posting to get other groups, some other ways it might be serving on another association. I believe in not being in silos. We have to be a part of other people's coalitions and also form coalitions within ourselves for others so that we are collaborating in the state of Florida. And last, but certainly not least, it's important that we show up. Okay? And showing up means a few things to me: listening, learning, and being okay with the fact that we do not know it all and that’s how we’re going to learn it all.
Chris: Right, right.
Dawn: And we're going to need other folks to do this. So, we have to not just write about it, we have to do it. Words are one thing, research is another, but what I need is action. So, we need to make sure we do that the best and that's one thing I would say, after a year in, we're going to do better next year. I know that because we'll have a plan that looks differently of what some of that action will look like.
Chris: I think about the importance of values because theoretically the values are the one thing, even if we disagree, we can go back to that should unite us and I always tell students that are thinking about entering a career in social work, if you can't align with these values then it may not be the place for you and I think, I think it's really, really important to understand that we all know that people have different views on social justice, right? And so that means different things to different people, but that value of social justice is clearly articulated in the NASW code of ethics and so we really need to be able to have people understand that at its core to be a social worker.
Dawn: Absolutely. Absolutely and I think what's important there is the following: we get, as you can imagine, we are grateful to have 4,100 members in the state of Florida. We are looking to add more social workers into that, of course, but here's the key: that means you have folks, 4,100 different folks, out there, regardless, but here's what I want to remind people, just like you just said, is that when we do an action alert it, is not about like Dawn Brown's personal values, it’s about the professional values that we align with.
Chris: And who we serve!
Dawn: And, so that's the key. Yeah, and who we serve. So, it's our profession and then the individuals and families and communities that we serve and so we can't mix those up and if we do, I agree with you, I'd rather have a conversation early on with somebody to say, “maybe this is not the right path for you and that's okay.” There are lots of other paths, but this profession calls us to advocate. That is written within our code of ethics and that is our professional obligation and those keywords like social justice, dignity and worth of a person, the importance of human relationships – those are core values that we have to honor within our profession.
Chris: Well, you know, I will say this: I like the fact that it doesn't describe which person when we say dignity and worth. It's of all persons, and it really pains me that people can't understand that all means all. I do think, I will say this Dawn Brown, that I think there's real bravery required for what you're doing because, really, you have a lot of crucial conversations. I mean you, on a daily basis, without so without being defensive and without being angry, but you’ve got to stand your ground on the daily with regards to the values. Is that, has that been a challenge for you? Has that been something that you had to work through?
Dawn: You know, that's a very good point and I'm grateful that it hasn't been the largest challenge and maybe it's because I've been challenged along the way before I got here so I know you have some of those conversations and also, I have to go back to the core of who I am and who I am as a professional. I say I'm a social worker because that's who I am and that is the obligation I have when I come to this space. Is it always easy? No. I am going to be real about the fact that it is not and there are some folks who … how do we balance the honor of people do have differing opinions and I can have that conversation, people come from different backgrounds and experiences and I can have that conversation. I am not willing to negotiate the humanity of others, though. And so that is not a conversation that I can do.
Chris: Good. It’s a non-negotiable.
Dawn: And I feel strongly about the fact that it's non-negotiable. Our humanity of others is so important in the core of who we should be and I can't negotiate that and anything, whether it's a policy or practice or even personal, that goes against that to someone is problematic. So, I can work through the other stuff. I know not everybody's at the same point, right, because even with our clients, that's not the case. I could work through some of those things. Those things about humanity and groups that we have to continue to advocate for and kind of that other folks dehumanize, that's not negotiable for me.
Chris: Well, and so we talked a little bit. When Dawn and I get together we have these big discussions all the time, but we talked a little bit about the marriage of, you know, micro and macro and how it's almost detrimental to talk about them as separate things. So, talk a little bit about, you find yourself, I mean we just talked about the parallel process, and even though you are in arguably probably the macro-iest macro position that we have out there in social work, talk a little bit about the importance of the micro influence and the mezzo influence with where you sit.
Dawn: Yes! I love that, I speak to that, and I want to echo yes when I get with Chris G. – hopefully that's okay – we have these conversations quite often because it's imperative. Let me say this, that from the core of who I was even prior to getting in the field, I have always believed in advocacy, but let me also agree that we can't have one without the other. Part of what made me want to advocate for grandparents to get the support they are when they’re raising their grandchildren is because I've sat in the homes. I facilitated those support groups. I've been able to hear their stories to know that we need to do better in those realms. That also goes to, I've sat into folks who have just been diagnosed with cancer to know that we need insurance and quality insurance for everyone, right? So, for me, you can't have one without the other. I feel very strongly that, you know, we need to make sure in a cross curriculum that they're both offered, quite honestly, because, an example I'll give and I know we talked a little bit about this, it's imperative though, as I get ready to travel over to the Florida 491 board meeting, the 491 Board for Marriage and Family Therapists, Mental Health Counselors, and Clinical Social Workers, is the following: they make practices, rules and statutes that governs how clinical social workers can practice. We cannot have one without the other and we have to be informed of that. So, I will say this, I had a wonderful cohort at USF that used to laugh at me, in a good way, let me say that, and call me the “macro-maniac,” but let me say this, I also center micro and mezzo in everything that I do because I have to be mindful of that and we can't have one without the other.
Chris: Well and I said this and the listeners get really probably sick because I beat like similar drums and every one of these [laughter], but I think the power of people's stories, number one they help me keep going and they give me something to, and I'm not looking for something to fight for, but they really do give me something to fight for. They bring heart to policy, they bring heart to reimbursements, they bring heart. People’s stories really are at the core of every macro, or should be at the core of every macro decision that is made, which ties it all back to the ethics, right?
Dawn: That’s right, that’s right. It should be there. It should be that we're hearing the stories, valuing those stories, and I had a colleague who told me that sort of the most ethical thing we can do when we hear these stories particularly the same ones over and over again is to then advocate for change so that folks aren’t continuing to cycle through those stories, but they're moving from the just well-being and survival to thriving in society and so it's so important that, like you said, I have to listen to people's stories, I want to listen to people stories, okay, and how imperative that is, first of all it helps me grow. It reminds me that in this large universe – I say universe because, really, we're the smallest small, small, small part of this larger, interconnected universe, that every story matters, right, and so we have to stop trying to get rid of some stories, which is happening, and make sure we elevate those stories, because the more people learn about other people and their stories, the more I think they can start relating and understanding historical context to why we are where we are.
Chris: When they find themselves in those, I find myself in everybody's story that I listen to, right? I mean, so when I'm doing an interview like this, you can't help but find yourself in that story.
Dawn: That's right, that's right and just seeing those pieces like, “wow I would have never known,” because we make a lot of assumptions about people we see and how we might not be able to relate, when, in fact, there's some areas we can relate and others we're going to learn from and grow from.
Chris: Well, when you think about building advocates that are going to come behind us, because really Dawn, I say this a lot, we're planting seeds for trees we're not going to sit under, let's be honest. So, when we think about that, what sits on your heart with regards to building advocates? Dream a little bit with me. So, like, what could we do, what can we do right now to help you build advocates in our communities that take on the dignity and worth of persons, for example?
Dawn: Yes, thank you for that. First and foremost, and we say this and this is funny at the micro level, but I think it's important at the macro level, I think we have to self-reflect also on who we are. We have to self-reflect on what our lived experiences have been and for some of that, that might mean we're going to gravitate to advocating for some of those areas. For other areas, that might not be the case. I also want to honor the following: some people want people to go from 0 to 100 and I don't think that's a fair process. I think that, yes, I want everybody out there advocating, but what that looks like and what that feels like might be different for each person. So, I want someone to be able to say, “this is the one area that I choose to advocate on,” get to know that area as best as they can, get connected with an association or organization that advocates in that area, and try to find out ways you can go out there. Now here's the beauty and also sometimes the challenge of our profession: we have lots of areas, lots of social issues that we look at. Which is a good thing because that's what we do as a profession, but sometimes makes it harder for people to just narrow down. I'm encouraging people to do a few things: find the one or two things. We all have to be mindful of things like self-care and bandwidth because otherwise you get so exhausted and then you do nothing, right?
Chris: Right.
Dawn: Versus I want you to continue to be able to move forward and do something. The other thing I want folks to consider is that, how do we bring someone along with us in this process? This is not an individual sport. This is a collective responsibility that we have to each other and for each other and so how do I bring somebody along or how do I go along with someone else to the spaces that they're advocating? Because that's showing up as an ally in that space you might learn a lot from. The other thing I’ll say is this: let's say you're advocating for something and somebody's advocating against it. I know people don't always like to hear this, but sometimes we have to find the reason or why and some reasons are very underlined, right? But some other reasons, if we have a conversation with people we are not that far apart in our thinking. We might use different language, we might see things a little differently, but in some cases, how are we mindful of that in spaces because we have to know this: not everybody's going to agree with everything we believe in, even people who we mostly side with and so I think that we have to be mindful of that. Last, but certainly not least, make sure we are centering what it looks like to have a collective thriving humanity in what we do, because if we’re not doing that then we're not doing the right thing. If we don't begin to look at folks, you know people say in the world, you know, we are judged by how we help the most vulnerable in our populations. Let's make sure that judgment is that we are doing everything we can to these groups that, unfortunately, in many ways have become vulnerable due to some laws and legislation.
Chris: Through no fault of their own.
Dawn: Yes, yes. I think that's the key. So, how do we do that work but really connecting. I invite anybody to connect with us at NASW Florida to do this work. I invite anybody to reach out if they know if they're interested and I will connect them to another organization that might do that work. Our goal is to really connect people so that they can do the wo 491 Board for Marriage and Family Therapists, Mental Health Counselors, and Clinical Social Workers work collectively and not individually because it takes a lot and, you know, and there’s strength in numbers in this work. So, I really want folks to dig at their core and to get to know what they want to know, but I also think we have to sometimes do our own reflection to see what's going to work best in advocacy for us and then move forward with that.
Chris: Well, I was reading some stuff and I’ve been kind of integrating it. The concept of connectivity that you just talked about and that this is a team sport, I like that I like that analogy, is connectivity to human beings, when you think about Maslow's hierarchy of need, really sits alongside the air we breathe and the food we eat and the shelter that we sit under, because a lot of times that connection is what provides those other things and when I think about it that way, wow, what powerful positions we sit in when we connect.
Dawn: Yes, and how important that is. We knew as, and there's been plenty of studies about this, the impact of isolation on individuals, right?
Chris; Right. Loneliness.
Dawn: And seeing that that exists, so being able to find ways to connect are so important and what it does, too, is that it reminds us of how interdependent we are on each other. Like, we can't do this work alone. We are so interdependent on each other and that's a good thing, let's do that. We can have individuality, we can talk about things we can do, but in order to be successful, like, we need to be connected to folks. That's also how we learn. I don't know somebody's story until they tell me and, you know, I have to be mindful not to come in with some bias of what I perceive somebody's story is before they tell me their truth and, unfortunately, I know people make assumptions, but that's not what we're doing. Connection allows me to be authentic and, in your words, Chris G., because we’ve used this a lot, I want to sit and break bread with folks and have a conversation and have a dialogue and be able to have these conversations about the importance of connection, about, “okay we don't align with this, but these other three things we do, so how do we move forward with that,” and sort of see where the other piece goes. I think folks feel that sometimes you have to be 100% in 100% out. Now, yes, when we're dehumanizing folks, like I said, that is my non-negotiable.
Chris: Very black and white, yeah.
Dawn: When there's some differences, we can talk through some of that. The problem is not a lot of folks are listening. I'm not going to say not a little folks are talking. Not a lot of folks are listening and I think that is what they're not hearing sometimes because what we listen to do is to come up with our rebuttal, rather listening to learn.
Chris: I think, you know, I say that all the time and I said to myself, “Chris, listen to hear, don't listen to respond.” You know, it doesn't matter what I think, you know, if I'm listening to your story, you don't, you don't need my opinion on your story. You know, the other thing that is so profound to me, Dawn, that a mutual friend, Karen Van Zyl, talked about and really threw a light on for me in a major powerful way is this whole concept of using learning as a coping mechanism. So, the more I learn about you then I can cope with all of those things that the shame and, and maybe the, the dissonance that we talked about, I can deal with those things if I learn about it instead of being afraid to learn about it and just holding it.
Dawn: Yeah, I think that’s so interesting because that brings us, like, that's almost something our souls need, right?
Chris: Yes!
Dawn: Yeah, we need to kind of dig deep when it comes to that because we are, as humans, I agree with you, as much as I said we need to listen to hear, there's times I'm like, “okay, what's my argument going to be right?”
Chris: Right, right!
Dawn: This is what the human in me, but I agree with you about this piece of how do we use that listening and how do we use that learning in that opportunity as a potential coping mechanism? And I think, for some people, that definitely could work because there's such importance in that and I think that it also helps us hopefully remove some of our assumptions we come into spaces with and hopefully that will be less and less since we move forward.
Chris: Well, and even down to the macro piece, learning about legislators and their opinions and their bias and their viewpoints and speaking to that in a way that connects with them, I think is really important. I think, you know, with the polarization that, let's just face it, we're experiencing across the globe at this point, I think it really becomes really important to sincerely learn about those who may feel differently than we do about issues and learn why they feel differently. What are your thoughts on that?
Dawn: I think you bring up a great point. I think that there's a reality that, particularly, like you said, we have a polarized legislative, not just locally, not just statewide, but nationally, too, and across the globe.
Chris: Internationally.
Dawn: Yeah, internationally, exactly. We need to be mindful what that is and how do we, how do we meet folks, right? How do we have conversations with folks and how do we learn with some people are coming from? Now, we know, like I said and I've said it previously, is that there's unfortunately places that some folks are coming from where I can't necessarily meet them there, right, and that's okay. But that's not everyone, right? There are other folks we could have a dialogue and conversation with and you'll hear ... we hear people all the time now speaking out courageously, even if the majority say it's one thing. So, we have to be able to listen learn and, I think we said this before, but the ability to speak a language. Now, I'm going to tell you the language I'm going to speak. The language I'm going to speak is going to be equity, social justice, and those areas, but what I'm going to say is this, part of being able to do that is advocating for people to vote in those areas. So, in order to do that, you sometimes have to understand what the other person's coming from. You can't just disregard, you can't just ignore, because I can advocate for those and hope to bring about some change, even in one or two people can make a difference because those folks might talk to two other people, right? It's about building this web or this network that, “hey I didn’t realize this.”
Chris: Building connections. Building and maintaining connections. The power of connection is that, maybe, I feel like we’re all one or two degrees away from understanding. You know? You know, and maybe I don't understand like you, maybe I can't go there with somebody, but I can go to somebody that I trust that can explain to me or help me navigate relationships and responses and, I don't know, I think about my social work education and I don't know about yours, I don't know how good a job we really do elucidating or illuminating that skill as a social worker. I mean I think we talk about it, but I don't know that we give it it's due, because I think that's the intersectionality of self-reflection and then what we do with that self-reflection.
Dawn: Yeah, I think that's a great point, right? So how do we get that skill and how do you do that and how do you balance that? I think you mentioned this in earlier conversation: how do you balance that? I appreciate the passion. I appreciate the energy. I appreciate the advocacy, right? So, I'm going to harness some of that, while also saying, “what is the best way to do that in this setting,” right, and “what is the best way to do that in this meeting,” and how can you be most productive and successful in some of those spaces. And it might look differently in the same way that it might look differently depending on the client we are interacting with, who we might see has the same diagnosis or the same situation, but we might have to approach that client differently in order to see change, and so I think there's something important to be said about that because we can. I want that energy. I want that passion. Our code of ethics calls it, but also, I don't want to forget the other one. There's integrity, and competence is one of the six values there, and one of the biggest tools in our toolbox as social workers is flexibility. We can go in there and have read a report done all this work walk-in and nothing looks like we read just now, right?
Chris: Right, right.
Dawn: So, you have to be able to move and be flexible right then, and that’s okay. So, we need to do that also when it comes to legislative advocacy and building spaces where we do need change, and we're going to advocate for change. It's finding different ways to advocate for that.
Chris: Well, and I think we talked about dignity and even if you disagree with somebody, I think allowing them to keep their dignity because, you know this, we’ve all been in rooms where we’re just like, “Oh my gosh. What was just said? Oh my gosh.” That just takes the collective air out of the room. But I really do think it's important and we need to check ourselves because even that person that just expounded something horrendous or that we view as horrendous, I think we have to come at it, we have to go back to our values and go, “okay, but how do I let that person keep their dignity even though what they may have said was undignified,” because I think a lot of times, we only see the result and behaviors of people’s triggers. We don’t really see what was underlying the trigger, right? We only get to see that what's on top and that behavior may be abhorrent, but I promise you there's something underneath that behavior that if we get below it, explains why we just saw what we just saw.
Dawn: Well, I think that's a good point there and the sense of you're absolutely right. Regardless of how somebody comes at me, my control only is in how I respond, right? So, my control is that my core will not allow me to do ... I can be passionate, I can be energetic, I can be eloquent. I could do all of that regardless of how you said what you said. Now don't get me wrong, I understand our human nature and I understand emotions and how it happens, but I understand when I'm a professional social worker, when I'm out there, how I respond can still be in those spaces and places, right? And we've talked about this with clients, too. Sometimes it's just that we all hear a lot of different things and how we respond and we show up makes us who we are and so that's important and that is a big core of what we can do and I agree with you. It doesn't mean that you don't have passion. It doesn't mean you don't have advocacy. It just means that how do we, then, show up in those spaces doing that the best way we can because, ultimately, what we want is a certain outcome, right, and so, if some of this will give you that outcome, let's find a way to do it.
Chris: It's so important. What I think we have to articulate what's your intent. What is my intent for this? If my intent is to educate then that takes on a fundamentally different strategy than if it's to win, right?
Dawn: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s a good point. As so what is our intent, what is our goal? Let me tell you this too. I think one of the things is here, and I've had to say this a lot in the last couple of weeks, I'll say, is “What's our short-term goal versus our long term?” Right? Right. And so that's going to look different in how we move and navigate this space because we have to be able to be mindful that not everything's going to change overnight. Although I wish it did in some ways, I'm also realistic to the environment we're working in. So, how do we prepare to build for long-term to see some of that change, like you said, planting those seeds cultivating that, even knowing and, even more so, for me, knowing I'm not going to be a person sitting under there, but guess what my nieces are going to be down there, my nephews are going to be there, and I want to plant a seed that helps them grow and them thrive.
Chris: Well, I think I have to say to myself all the time, “Do they really need to hear from you, Chris Groeber? Probably not.” and “What are the unintended consequences of even my presence?” I mean I asked myself that on the regular. Is this a room I even need to be in because that room may not be ready for me, and so I think that, when you think about, you know, people think critical thinking is hard when you're dealing with individual client problems, right, but I think critical thinking really becomes a really important skill when you're thinking about advocacy in the good of the whole, because you don't want unintended consequences to bleed over onto other people. And I just want to say, back to my statement earlier, I think, as your colleague and as your friend, I'm proud to be your colleague. I'm even prouder to be your friend, because I think what you're doing at this moment in time, and it's probably always been, but it's very brave. It's very brave to speak your truth and to stand in truth regardless of how hard the wind blows or which way it blows, so I want you to know that you will always have my undying appreciation for that.
Dawn: Thank you so much, Chris G. and I have to tell you I think my, my courage, I'm grateful that comes from a lot of my family, let me say that I'm always speaking through them and to them and courage comes from ancestors and most importantly, even currently now, courage comes to me seeing people doing so much with far less resources than I have that I ultimately feel the following: that I need to speak up, our association and our chapter needs to do that work, and we need to bring other folks into the fold to do that work. So, you know, I see folks everyday out there fighting different battles and so we have to show up as social workers in those spaces.
Chris: Well, like I said, I’m proud to do it linked arms with you. I'm happy. It's a great blessing for me, just like I said, to know you and to be in your space, and I've listened to you speak. Every time I listen to you speak, like if they would ask for an offering, I would give it, so I just want you to know...
Dawn: I’ve got to keep that in mind! [laughs]
Chris: Yeah! Keep that in mind if you need some cash! Pass the plate! [Laughs] Talk to me, just before we close here then, Dawn, about how people can connect with you.
Dawn: Oh yes, and please connect with me. I look forward to it, and thank you always, Chris G., for being you. I have always appreciated space I get to share with you and your persevering support with me, I'll say that for sure. Several ways you can connect with NASW Florida or Virgin Islands, let me say that. NASW Florida, while our home is located in Tallahassee, our goal is to be located throughout the state. So let me give you just two things. One, we have this amazing conference coming up in June, June 15th to the 17th, in Orlando. It is our annual conference. We invite anyone – students, faculty, staff, social worker practitioners – to join us for over 80 workshops, a dynamic keynote speaker and, guess what, we are looking to center self-care because we owe that to everyone in our profession. The other thing you can do at any point of course is to email me. I encourage folks to do that. I am dbrown.naswfl@socialworkers.org and let's say email is not your thing, we actually keep a line for all of our members, still, a 1-800 number at 800-352-6279. We invite you to join to be a part of this process. We invite folks who are not social workers to join to be a part of this process. We need each other to do well and so we are not siloed. Although I'm a strong supporter of our social workers and so happy to be one, we invite anyone to join our spaces and to be a part of what we do. So, Chris G., I just want to thank you for taking this time to let me share some space with you and appreciate all that you do.
Chris: Well, it's been my great pleasure as always, and anytime I can grab a little Dawn time I covet it, so I just want you to know. And like I said, I'm rooting you on sitting down here at the beach, and if there's ever a reason for me to come across the bridge and lend my voice to anything you're doing, you know you've got my support. So, thank you, Dawn, thank you NASW Florida, thank you board and volunteers for all that you do to elevate our voices, our collective voices, and our profession. And I just, I really appreciate that and I look forward to, like I said, what's next for us, collectively. So, again, Dawn thanks, and guys, make sure if you want to reach out to Dawn, I'm telling you she's approachable and will want to hear from you, so if you're interested, please this is an invitation to reach out to her. Thanks, Dawn!
Dawn: Thank you!